Sep 7, 2020
Jay Owen, Founder and CEO at Design Extensions, started building basic websites at age 17. He worked for a number of years as a “solopreneur,” hiring contractors as needed, and, as a company, made as much as six figures. When the economy collapsed in 2008, Jay’s business was still doing well. He looked around. People were losing jobs. Things were in crisis. Idea? He’d create a full-time job for somebody. His StoryBrand Certified Agency and HubSpot Goal Partner has been in business and growing for over 20 years.
Today, Design Extensions employs about 20 people, a great size because Jay has been able to create scalable systems that don’t break with the absence of one person. In the past 5 years, following Mike Michalowicz’s book, Clockwork, the premise of which is that there should be no one person in which the company is dependent, Jay has “replaced himself” at every level. The company can now survive, even if Jay is gone for as long as 30 days.
Jay says, “A lot of business owners find marketing very confusing and expensive,” and it often does not work. He explains that the agency’s job is not to build websites, put pixels on a screen, or write good content for clients. Applying Design Extensions’ proven growth strategies to clients’ businesses helps them grow – by clarifying their messages and developing and executing effective plans, the agency enables clients to gain attention and acquire customers. The agency plans to add a consultancy arm to provide coaching and strategy direction, to make sure businesses have clear growth plans for both marketing and business fundamentals.
In this interview, Jay recommends a number of books that have been pivotal for his agency. The agency’s messaging is built around Donald Miler’s “StoryBrand,” as described in his book, Building a StoryBrand. Jay says that most people talk about themselves too much when they should talk about the customer’s problem and how the company’s solution can help the customer win. The customer needs to be the hero of the story. When Design Extensions changed the message on its homepage to align with StoryBrand concepts, incoming leads doubled. Telling the one thing that makes a company “special” is rarely all that special. Three unique things can become very special.
Kim Scott’s Radical Candor inspired Jay to have the courage to “be exceptionally clear with where improvement needs to happen,” as long as that correction was paired with caring immensely for the individual. Jay believes it is his “responsibility to create a space where people can fail without failing catastrophically.” Little failures will make people stronger. Gino Wickman’s Traction provided the framework for the processes, procedures, and systems needed to make his business scalable and long-lasting. His final hiring interview, from Dave Ramsey’s EntreLeadership, involves Jay and his wife taking the prospect and spouse to dinner.
Jay’s book, Building a Business that Lasts (Without Sacrificing Family) is currently available on his website, jayowenlive.com, for the cost of shipping and handling. He has a podcast of the same title available on that website and he is on “all the social media.
ROB: Welcome to the Marketing Agency Leadership Podcast. I’m your host, Rob Kischuk, and I’m joined today by Jay Owen, Founder and CEO at Design Extensions based in St. Augustine, Florida. Welcome to the podcast, Jay.
JAY: Thanks for having me, Rob.
ROB: Excellent to have you here. Why don’t you tell us about Design Extensions and what superpower you all bring to the marketing agency world?
JAY: Absolutely. I find that a lot of business owners end up in a situation where marketing is very confusing and expensive. They’re not going to waste a lot of time and marketing on money that doesn’t work, so what we do is help them clarify their message and then put together the right plan and then execute that plan so they can get attention and acquire customers. We’ve been doing that for the past 21 years, and we’ve grown every single year. We love taking those same business growth strategies we’ve used for ourselves and applying those to other businesses to help them grow. That’s our focus.
ROB: You’ve kept the pitch pretty tight. I think that speaks to what you might be able to do for someone else. And 20 years is a while to keep the same business operating, and particularly in the marketing world, where things keep on moving. What are some of the constants that have been true throughout the life o the company, and what are some of the changes you’ve seen that you’ve been able to incorporate into your own story?
JAY: Gosh, so much has changed over time. When I started this thing, first, I was only 17, so I had no idea what I was doing. I was just building basic websites at the time. If that’s all we still did today, we would probably be in pretty big trouble as far as the company goes. Plus, that first year I only made about $5,000 in total revenue, and that wouldn’t work these days. [laughs]
A lot has changed. This is probably one of the most dynamic industries that exists with regards to the speed of change. When I started this business, AltaVista was one of the leading search engines. Yahoo was the king of the internet. AOL was a monster player still. Now the landscape is totally different. There were no iPhones back then. There were no mobile sites. You couldn’t have an application on the web. The idea of having a Software-as-a-Service business online was not a thing.
All of that has changed over time, and we’ve just had to adapt with it. Ultimately, it’s rooted in what our mission is. This is what I tell our team all the time. Our job is not to build websites for people. Our job is not to put pixels on the screen. Our job is not even to write good words for them. Our job is to help other people grow their business.
Now, that often looks like some of the things that we do, like help people clarify their message so they can have a clean, clear message that actually gets attention. It looks like building websites. It looks like running marketing campaigns. It looks like developing applications. But the root of it all is, are we helping people grow their business, yes or no? If the answer is no, that’s not a service we should offer anymore. That’s really been the guiding light, that clarity of mission over time. But gosh, I’ve learned a lot along the way.
ROB: Absolutely. Is there maybe a service that you did stop offering with that degree of clarity where you came to a moment and said, “We shouldn’t do that anymore”? Is there an example we could look at?
JAY: It’s funny because there’s one specific one that just happened recently. We’d not been offering this service for a while, but my office admin was going through some expenses and cleaning out some company stuff and said, “Hey, do we need this ‘email@example.com’ email address anymore?” We’re not really doing print work anymore.
We used to do a lot of print work back in the day, and print is still needed sometimes; I’m not one of these digital marketing guys that believes all of traditional marketing of print and billboards and radio and TV are useless. They’re not useless. They have a place. They’re often overpriced, but that’s a different situation. But we don’t do that at all anymore. We don’t print materials for clients; we’ll send them out if they need to be. So that’s a service that we ended up cutting. It wasn’t in the best interest of us or our clients and it doesn’t exist anymore for us.
ROB: Even though in a moment, it might be the most reliable time to reach somebody with some direct mail.
JAY: Yeah, I’m not opposed to direct mail at all. There’s plenty of opportunities for these kind of things, like I said. It just didn’t align correctly with our vision as a service. But with that said, we might help somebody craft the message that’s going to go on their direct mail.
For example, one of the biggest problems most people have is they talk about themselves too much. Really what they should do is talk about the problem that their customer is encountering and how their solution is going to help them solve that problem and help the customer win the day. We often want to position ourselves as the hero of the story, and really the customer needs to be the hero of the story.
So even with something like direct mail, just changing some of the words that you use on those postcards or flyers or brochures can have a massive impact on the outcome. That’s where our focus is more on versus actually producing the deliverable in that case.
ROB: You mentioned that “hero of the story” language and framework. That’s definitely become more prominent. It’s strange, because it’s the most timeless of stories, but it’s become much more prominent recently. Have you seen an evolution in understanding of how to build a good story over the life of the business?
JAY: Yeah. I’ve always said that everybody’s selling something; it’s just a matter of what. Our job is to understand that and help tell the story to basically get the customer to buy. But over time, one of the things that’s been hugely helpful for us is a framework called StoryBrand by a guy named Donald Miller. He wrote a book called Building a StoryBrand, and we use that framework in our messaging now.
It’s stuff that we essentially already knew, and they’re not totally new ideas. It’s just a matter of packaging it together in a way that’s so clear that it really, really works. We started using this framework for ourselves, and just by changing our messaging on our homepage, we doubled our incoming leads. When we found that out for ourselves, we thought, “Hold on, this works really well. We should do this for everybody.”
So now we’re actually a StoryBrand Certified Agency, and that’s one of the power cards in our deck, if you will, of things that are really helpful when we’re helping a company grow.
ROB: It’s a big name behind that. I think sometimes when agencies look at that sort of program, they worry that if they affiliate with that instead of maybe cultivating their own secret sauce, they’re going to become a commodity. How have you looked at using the StoryBrand to elevate rather than reduce value of what you do?
JAY: Great question. I think I have had those same concerns over time, and there certainly are pieces of the puzzle that we go, “Hey, this is how we do it that’s exclusive to us.” But I’ve been in business long enough to know that there’s only so many ways that a wheel’s going to go around, and sometimes you just need a clear plan on how to get that done.
I think a lot of companies, regardless of whether they’re a marketing agency or any other type of business, are looking for that one thing that differentiates them. I think that’s a mistake because I think it’s very rare that one thing differentiates a company. What I do believe is that if you take three unique things and put them together, it becomes very special.
For us, for example, three of our uniques would be something like we’re a StoryBrand Certified Agency, we’re a HubSpot Goal Partner, and we’ve been in business and grown for over 20 years in a row. If you combine those three things together, there’s only about three or four agencies in the entire country that fit into that model. That’s where there starts to become a uniqueness.
And just because we’re tied onto the HubSpot bucket for one thing or tied onto the StoryBrand framework for this thing, I don’t think that makes us a commodity at all. I think that it’s a combination of knowing how to use those things across multiple areas that actually gives us a lot of strength, and we can take strength from multiple other experts in order to make that happen.
ROB: I’ve heard that referred to sometimes as talent stacking. To be able to take that large Venn diagram with big circles – there’s even a decent number of agencies that have been around for 20 years; not a ton, but some – but some of them are still trying to sell you on 15-year-old SEO tactics, and that might not be such a good idea.
HubSpot also gives you potentially the differentiation of some of the different levels. Is that something you’re conscious of as you’re building the business? You’re not going to drive a customer to something that’s not helpful to them, but some eyes on when you’re ready to level up the HubSpot to show that you have been even more successful than some people with HubSpot?
JAY: Yeah. The other thing too, though, is I will drop either one of those things if I don’t think they’re the best for our customers anymore. HubSpot, for example, we were a HubSpot Partner years and years ago, and it just wasn’t the right fit for our client base at the time. We ended up dropping it and using other tools that we piecemealed together.
Now we’ve come back to it, and HubSpot’s changed a lot over the years too. Now they have a great free entry level product, so we can put lower end clients on it that might not be ready for a very expensive marketing suite where they’re paying $1,000+ a month just for their software, but they can enter on the free level and it works really well.
Ultimately, for me, we’re going to use whatever tools or services we think are the best fit for the client. I always tell my team, I couldn’t care less how we did it before; all I care about is what the best way is to do it. We’re going to develop what we believe is the best practice across all these different disciplines, and we’re going to keep doing it that way until we find a better way. And as soon as we find a better way, we’re going to change it.
That’s how I operate. If anything, I have to temper that a little bit because I am very comfortable with change, and that can be disruptive for a team if you don’t give them some stability over time.
ROB: It’s that balance of both change, but also there’s probably an inversion point that you’ve had to go through in the life of the business. There’s one point where in order to grow things beyond yourself, you have to define a process and have somebody follow it. And then there’s a limit where you now have people who understand these tools better than you and have to be able to come to you and come to the organization and recommend change and a better way to do that.
How do you think about getting that expert feedback from your team back into the agency, now that you’re a couple of steps up in scale?
JAY: I like how Andy Stanley puts it. He says as organizational authority increases, individual competencies decrease. I think you could also say as an organization’s size grows, even if you were the one who did all the things at the beginning, which I was, at some point you’re no longer the best anymore. It’s funny because it’s an interesting transition where – I used to always sell clients back in the day that they got to deal with me the entire time. That was the pitch. The pitch was, “Hey, the great news is you don’t have to deal with a sales rep who’s going to hand you to an account manager who’s going to hand you to a team who’s going to do all these things. You can deal with me from beginning to end.”
That was a true advantage at the time, in the same manner that now it’s a true advantage that you don’t get to work with me anymore. [laughs] Because my best and highest gifts are in overarching strategy; they’re not in building a website for you. And the proof is in the pudding because the websites we produce today are a thousand times better than anything we produced 5 or 10 or 15 years ago, and I have nothing to do with them anymore.
I think that’s the big challenge for a lot of entrepreneurs, especially agency owners, I find, because many agency owners started as a professional in the craft. They were the ones who put the pixels on the screen. They were the ones who wrote the words. At some point you have to transition from being the marketer to being a business builder, and those are different things.
ROB: You indeed mentioned that you started as an individual contributor building websites, and then it morphed and evolved. At what point did you realize that maybe this was going to be a company that could employ some other people and was going to be a long-term thing instead of – I think we start off building websites sometimes – it’s a thing you can do. When you’re 17, you’re like, “I’m going to do this for the next 20 years.”
JAY: Right. For me, years ago – gosh, I guess I was probably 21 – I’d just gotten married. I got married pretty young. The company I think at that point was making about $25,000 a year. I was waiting tables on the side and also going to school, and my wife was doing the same. I didn’t think I could make it work. I didn’t think it was going to be a full-time business. I thought it was really a hobby to some extent, just based on the dollars I was able to bring in.
I went to work for my uncle in that season because he ran a successful insurance agency. I thought he would fade out, I would fade in, and why not? It was kind of a silver spoon. It seemed like a good idea. He’s got a black Mercedes and a house in the mountains and a house towards the beach. “I would like to have that,” so my 21-year-old self said.
But I worked for him for 6 months and hated the insurance industry. One day I came home, and I knew I’d married the right woman when I came home, I was kind of upset, and I said, “Babe, I could do this, and I probably could make a lot of money at it, but I think I’m going to hate it my whole life” and she said, “So quit and do what you love.” I remember that season going, “I wonder if I’ll ever have enough work to keep myself busy a whole week.”
But what I didn’t understand at that time was the difference between owning a business and owning a job. What I really owned at the time was a job, not a business. I didn’t pay myself very well and I didn’t have very good hours, and I had the opposite of what most people want when they start a business, which is time, money, and freedom. I had none of those things.
It took time for me to finally get that working as a solopreneur, if you will. I used a lot of contractors eventually and had my own thing. It was working pretty well. I got up to a point where I was making six figures as a company and feeling pretty comfortable, but then the economy collapsed in 2008. I’d used a lot of contactors but never had a full-time employee. I looked around, and people were losing their jobs everywhere and things were in crisis.
My business was actually doing pretty good, because it turns out people need marketing in downturns because they need to get attention and acquire customers. I thought, “I think I can make a job for somebody. I think I could create a full-time position and pay somebody as a W-2 employee.” That was a big change for me at that point over using contractors. So, I did. I created a job. I did a really bad job at knowing how to hire or fire or do anything else, but I learned along the way.
And now we have a team of about 20, and it’s a great size because – I always said I never wanted to be more than 10 people, but I realized at some point a couple of things. In order for me to create scalable systems that didn’t break when one person was absent, I had to be a certain size to pull that off, and I also had to be a certain size so that when one person went on vacation, I didn’t get two jobs for the week. There were years where I dreaded the summer because I’d have one person go on vacation and I’m like, “Great, now I have two jobs this week” – which is fine; I’m not scared of the work, but it gets exhausting after a while.
Now it’s very different because we’ve worked really hard the last 5 years to make sure there’s no one person the company is dependent on, including me. We proof tested that about a month or so ago. I took a 30-day RV trip with my family and didn’t work the whole time. That’s a big barrier of success for me, even more so than anything money can provide. Once you lose money, you can always go get more of it, but once you lose time, you can’t get any more. Especially with my kids growing up fast, that was a big deal for me. That’s kind of the story of growing it over time.
ROB: When’s the next trip?
JAY: Next year. I plan to take the same amount of time off pretty much every year. I don’t know if we’ll do an RV trip every year, but I think it’s healthy for the business for me to take that amount of time off. The idea actually came originally from a book called Clockwork by Mike Michalowicz. Same guy that wrote Profit First. It’s called Clockwork, and he basically says an owner or a founder needs to be able to leave for 30 days and the company keep functioning, because typically most companies go through a full cycle of business in 30 days. It’s the only way that you know that you’ve actually replaced yourself at every level.
The company becomes more valuable, number one, but it also protects the team as well, because what happens if I walk out and get hit by a bus? Does the company collapse in 2 weeks because there’s no figurehead anymore? If so, I didn’t do a very good job of building a business that lasts for them, and ultimately for my family as well. So that’s how I think about it.
ROB: Excellent. What was the timeline from when you decided to take that trip and maybe when you started telling people, and then when you actually took it? What was that timespan?
JAY: I planned the idea of it before the pandemic, first of all. [laughs] Last year I read this book Clockwork, and over time I had been working my way up to being able to take more time off.
First of all, I love the work that I do. I don’t need to get away from it. But I do. I say I don’t need to – a lot of entrepreneurs are like that. We say we love the work that we do. I love to work all the time. That’s great, but our brains actually do need physical rest. That’s why we often have these bursts of ideas in the shower or while driving or right before we fall asleep or right after we wake up. There’s real science behind this stuff. Our brains are able to come up with things that they wouldn’t otherwise come up with when we give them the space to do it.
So last year I read this book Clockwork and I thought, “All right, I’m doing that. I’ve done 2 weeks, so now I’m going to take a full month and see how that works.” My plan was to do that around this time of year this year. I actually ended up taking it earlier because of the pandemic, believe it or not. We sold our house right at the beginning of the pandemic; we have a new one that we’re building. So, we had about 3 months where we had nowhere to live and I thought, “This is the time. I’m just going to do it now.”
I’d like to say there was some kind of grand plan. I had told the team that was my intention this year and I needed them to be thinking about that, because every time I leave, one of the questions – even if it’s just for a week – I always tell the team, “If there’s anything you get to where you go, ‘We need to wait till Jay gets back before we can do X, Y, or Z or before we can decide this or figure it out or whatever else,’ that’s a problem. Whatever that is, write that thing down, and then we need to fix that so that it’s no longer dependent on me.”
I think that mentality has been a huge driver for our growth. What happens if I’m not here? How do we grow the company? It gives everybody else the opportunity both for success and failure, and that’s one of the big mistakes I think a lot of leaders make: they don’t want their team to fail. But when you think back, how many things did each of us learn from failure? The answer is a lot.
I believe it’s actually my responsibility to create space where people can fail without failing catastrophically. I don’t want people destroying the company, obviously, but some little failures here or there are good for everybody.
ROB: That’s such a good lesson there. When you talk about mistakes or maybe things you’d do differently or things you’ve learned from, what are some other things you’ve learned along the journey of building Design Extensions that you might do differently if you were starting it up today?
JAY: Two big things come to mind. The first is however much time you think you need to hire the right person, you probably should quadruple it because it’s so important to get the right people in the right seats. When we rush to hire people because we’re in some kind of super busy mode or whatever it is and we think we need to fill a seat, I almost always mess that up. Patience in hiring has been a hard one for me because I’m a very fast mover. I’m like, “All right, let’s go. You seem like you could figure that out. Let’s make it happen.” So I’m very patient in hiring.
The other thing for me personally – this is more of a personal weakness – is being willing to give direct and candid feedback early on. Some people don’t have a problem with this at all, but I do. Ultimately I’ve realized that it’s because I want people to like me. I want to just be one of the team. I want to be everybody’s friend. I want that so bad that at times, I’m willing to not be clear enough when there’s problems, and that is a massive mistake. It is not in anybody’s best interest.
So, I’ve had to really work hard at that. A book that really helped me with that was Radical Candor by Kim Scott. She talks about this idea that you can care immensely for someone and be exceptionally clear with where improvement needs to happen. Those things are not counterintuitive. But some people fall off one side of the cliff or the other. They’re either exceptionally clear, but they don’t seem to care about the people at all – and she calls those people “obnoxiously aggressive” – and the other one, which is where I tend to fall off the cliff, is you show that you care deeply but you are not as clear as you need to be when there’s problems, and she calls that person “ruinously empathetic.”
Which is interesting because when I was younger I wasn’t empathetic at all. I had no empathy. I think through almost 20 years of marriage and five children and 20 years of business, you start to develop – you’ve walked through enough fire that you do have more empathy for people. But the danger is believing that trying to be super kind to them at the expense of truth is going to be helpful for them, and it almost never is. Not for them, for you, or the company.
ROB: It’s really good to share both sides of that on Radical Candor, because I think some people have heard it and run into somebody who maybe learned too much of the wrong lessons from it. It’s always good to go back to the source and process through these things through our own filter.
You mentioned this situation where things are really busy and you really need to hire someone, and you’re talking about taking longer to make that hire. To do that, how do you manage the onslaught of work in that season while taking the time you need to make the right hire?
JAY: I think a lot of it comes down to being able to think far enough ahead. If I need to hire somebody, the chances are I needed to be thinking about that a month ago or 2 months ago. So, taking the time to evaluate what the issues are for the company and plan for that makes a big difference. I think most people can wing it. If you’re scrappy enough and smart enough, you can probably wing it to about 10 people and a million dollars in revenue, but after that things start to fall apart really quickly.
For us, one of the big things that helped was a book called Traction by Gino Wickman. I know I’m throwing a lot of books out – which ironically, I used to never read because I’m dyslexic. But they’re really, really a helpful framework.
I am that traditional entrepreneur that really has a problem with process and procedures and systems. I feel like they’re a cage for me. I feel like they’re very corporate-y – but they’re not. They’re required in order to build a scalable business that will last. Traction gave us the framework for that, and as it relates to hiring, what happened is because we set these annual goals and we have these quarterly planning meetings, both as a leadership team and as a full team, we can see ahead of time what the issues are, when we’re going to need to hire, and plan for that accordingly.
Right now, we’re working on hiring a new role, and we’re just willing to take the time for it. Matter of fact, one of my team members the other day was like, “We could probably cut that last interview to speed things up.” I’m like, “Nope, not doing it. I’m not cutting the last interview.”
I even go to the extent – this sounds kind of crazy, but it’s actually great – I stole this from Dave Ramsey out of the book EntreLeadership; I will do a spousal interview at the end. It’s not what it sounds like. Basically what happens is my wife and I will go out with whoever the team member is and their spouse, assuming they’re married, and we’ll just have dinner. The idea behind this is be with somebody in an environment that is not a traditional interview, because most people, including probably you and I if we were in that scenario, exaggerate and are moderate liars in interviews because we just instinctively are trying to put on our best self.
When you see people out in the real world at dinner or something, they can still put on their best self, but you start to get a picture. I also think it’s important to realize that when you’re hiring somebody, if their spouse is like a monster, you might be bringing that into the company too, and you’ve got to be aware of that.
ROB: You’ve mentioned a lot of books. I think there may be one other book you haven’t mentioned yet. I do believe you have a book of your own that we should know about.
JAY: Yeah, I do have a book. It was one of those things where everybody kept saying, “You should write a book. You should tell all these stories and put them together in one single plan.” I never felt confident enough to do that, but I finally did it. It’s called Building a Business That Lasts. My podcast is actually by the same title.
The idea is, what does it take to build a business over time? Most businesses fail in the first year. The vast majority do. Many more fail within the first 5 years, and very, very few make it to the 10-year mark. So on the podcast, for example, I interview people that have been in business for 10 years or more, and selfishly, I learn a lot because I get to talk to other business leaders and entrepreneurs and hear their stories.
The book is just my story, my framework of how I have made that work, and the subtitle is important to me, too. It’s “without sacrificing family,” because I’ve seen plenty of people along the way that have grown great businesses at the expense of all of the people around them, especially those closest to them. I probably have risked that at points, but I’m doing my darndest to try and stay married to the same woman my whole life and have kids that grow up and are as well-adjusted as they can be in this crazy world.
ROB: For sure. That is excellent and noble and worthwhile. Where should we find that book?
JAY: You can get a copy by just going to my website, which is jayowenlive.com. There’s a button right there that says, “Get Jay’s Book.” We actually have a free offer right now; you just cover the cost of shipping and handling and we’ll send that book out to you. Also on my website is my podcast and other materials that might be helpful if you’re looking to build a business to last.
ROB: Excellent. Jay, what’s coming up next for you and Design Extensions that we should be looking forward to you hearing about?
JAY: Great question. We are adding a new wing onto the company over the next couple of months and into the next few years. We’ve always been an agency. What I mean by agency is we do the work for you. But what I’ve found over time, especially in this new economy as people are starting new things, is they might not be able to afford the agency. They might want to be able to do some things themselves. They might even have some team members in-house that can do some of those things, but they need some guidance along the way. They need a guide who has been through it before and knows how to help them make those things happen.
We are in the process, in the very early stages right now, of building onto the agency a consultancy. I see those two things overlapping. The idea is essentially for us to be able to provide coaching and strategy around building a business and making sure you have a clear plan, not just for your marketing, but for business fundamentals as a whole.
I run a marketing agency, but you can hear just in this conversation we’ve had how many things we’ve talked about as it relates to hiring and firing, teambuilding, how to keep yourself sane in the midst of it all. So. we’re going to be building a consultancy on top of the agency. Both of those things, though, really feed well into who we are as a company as a whole, which goes back to that mission of helping other people grow their business.
ROB: Fantastic. Jay, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. We know where people should find your book; where should they find you and your firm when they’re looking to find you, online or otherwise?
JAY: They can still just go to my website. That’s the main place I want people to go after this interview, jayowenlive.com. My agency is linked to on there, the podcast is linked to on there, the book is linked to on there. Depending on who they are and what they need, those are great places to check me out.
And obviously, I’m available on all the social media, so wherever you happen to be, LinkedIn or Facebook or Instagram, I’m out there. If you want to connect, you can always find me in the DMs on Instagram or Facebook or LinkedIn.
ROB: That’s excellent. Jay Owen, Founder and CEO of Design Extensions, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. It’s been a pleasure.
JAY: Absolutely. Thanks for having me, Rob.
ROB: It’s a pleasure. Be well. Bye.
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